We first talked to Mark C. Crowley in May of 2021 2020年，一场全球大流行改变了远程工作模式，人们开始重返办公室
Around that same time, 一件叫做“大辞职”的事情正在发生，并且刚刚开始引起人们的注意. According to a report by the BBC, 2021年，平均每个月有近400万人离职.
报告还说:“专家认为有两个因素助长了这一趋势. While the pandemic served as the trigger, “大辞职”的种子很久以前就埋下了——直到导致员工辞职的深层次因素得到解决, resignations are unlikely to subside.”
Mark is a consultant, speaker, fellow podcast host and author
of the book, Lead From the Heart: Heart-Based Leadership for the 21st
Century, which has been recently re-released in a new edition with
almost double the content as before. You can find out more about Mark,
his book and his podcast at his website.
在本周的“真正的人类领导力”播客中, 马克和我谈论了大辞职开始以来的劳动力状况, if it is still happening, 领导人应该如何应对这种酝酿已久的清算带来的其他问题.
Transcript
Mark Crowley:
Well, 任何猜测这次伟大的辞职将会一劳永逸的人都被证明是错误的, right? 所以，自从外围十大菠菜app在一起以来，这就一直是一件持久的事情，正如我所料. In fact, it was many years ago that I actually, in the first edition of my book, 我写过，这是不可避免的，人们会说, “我不愿意再用这个来换取工作了." And it took much longer, 我从来没有想过它会成为一场全球性的流行病，让世界采取这样的行动. 但当我开始看到每个月都有创纪录的人戒烟时, I was the last one to be surprised. 它似乎完全符合我的预期. 所以你有两年的时间，人们在家工作，有足够的时间，他们不通勤, 他们有机会开始思考, "Is my ladder on the right wall? Am I working for the right company? Am I doing the right job? And by the way, what about my boss?"
And so, of course, when we deployed people to their homes for the first time, 你有很多老板只是认为一切照常, like no change. All it is that you're working from home. That's the only variable. 他们没有意识到，人们在争夺电脑和办公空间. 他们让孩子在家远程学习. You had elderly parents. 为了管理他们，你必须让自己沉浸在他们的生活中. 很多人说，“我不想那样. Just get me my report by eight o'clock, and everything's fine."
所以你在早上9点给他们打电话, and the kids are screaming, and you're like, "Hey, I need to talk to you right now.经理们会想，“嘿，现在是谈话的好时机吗?? 也许你想在15分钟后给我回电话等事情解决了?“这些是产生影响的人. But the ones who just acted as if nothing was different, people just look at that and said, "This is not good. 我不想为那些不把我当人看也不关心我的人工作, 谁不想为我在家工作所面临的挑战做出一些调整呢."
And so, the big picture is, coincidentally, that we're talking in November, 九月份的JOLTS报告刚刚出炉, and we have... 我记得我看到过一项统计数据显示，全国90%的顶级首席执行官认为，外围十大菠菜app面临的不仅仅是经济衰退, but a serious recession. And so, 下一步就是他们中有很大一部分人会说, "We may end up having to lay off people.“所以当你把这些信息放在那里, then people who are thinking, “我真的不想留在这家公司, I don't want to keep working for this boss. I want to make a change," you would think that would be tamped down, right, that people would say, "I can't afford to do that, because I'm going to be the first one let go if I'm the new guy.“相反，外围十大菠菜app只看到了非常小的下降. I think it was still 4.9月份有100万人辞职，4万人辞职.2 a month earlier.
所以，人们愿意尝试一下，去别的地方，因为他们太不开心了. So, I think, 总结一下你的问题，伟大的辞职是外围十大菠菜app管理员工效率的成绩单. 直到外围十大菠菜app改变管理人员的方式，真正用一种完全不同的哲学来重塑它, I think you're just going to see it continue, even when... 我认为经济大衰退可能会让人们更难快速行动起来, because jobs will become less plentiful. But irrespective of that, 我认为人们认为生命太短暂，不应该为老板或公司工作，或者两者兼而有之，因为他们根本没有把自己作为一个人的价值放在首位.
Brent Stewart:
Well, something you were just saying, it reminds me of something that you tweeted the other day, and it's kind of funny that I saw this, because we just had a friend of ours, Lynne Twist, on the podcast, 她和我聊了很多巴克明斯特·富勒以及他对她的影响. And you had recently tweeted a quote from him that says, "We never really change things by fighting the existing reality. 要改变某些东西，就要建立一个使现有模型过时的新模型.“那么根据你刚才所说的，在这一点上，外围十大菠菜app如何建立一种新的商业模式? 因为当前的问题在外围十大菠菜app的社会文化和经济体系中根深蒂固. 即使有了大的辞职，现有的结构仍然非常到位. So how does that get blown up, and how does that get built anew?
Mark:
我很喜欢你引用的那句话，因为那句话每次都让我笑. 这背后隐藏着一个小故事每当我看到巴克明斯特·富勒的作品时, 我想起了哈佛商学院(Harvard Business School)的艾米·埃德蒙森(Amy Edmondson)，她毕业后直接为他工作, 我不确定这是她的硕士学位还是博士学位，也不确定这在计划中的位置, 但她在他死前确实为他工作过. 但是，外围十大菠菜app需要一种新的模式，但没有人愿意接受它的想法并没有消失在我的脑海里.
我喜欢你说的“根深蒂固”这个词，因为我认为它不仅仅是根深蒂固. 外围十大菠菜app认为，领导模式的基础之一就是尽可能少地支付员工工资, squeeze as much out of them as possible, 让他们处于某种程度的恐惧和恐吓之下. We think this is what's going to drive people's performance. And so, I really think that there are companies that are hurting. 现在，即使是现在，职位空缺还是比申请工作的人多. 这就意味着这些公司不仅在努力寻找填补职位空缺的人, but the right people to fill positions. Somewhere along the line, there have to be enough companies that are looking and saying, "What do we have to do to stop the bleeding?"
Just the other day, 我读到一篇文章说现在有证据表明经理们害怕与员工进行任何困难的对话, 比如面对任何表现问题，因为他们害怕这只是另一个人的辞职和离开, and that's going to leave them high and dry. So we're actually going in that direction. 外围十大菠菜app只是不打算管理人员，因为外围十大菠菜app不希望他们离开. And I'm saying, "Okay, well, alternatively, 你为什么不看看你的管理方式以及人们不喜欢的地方，也许可以解决这些问题?"
所以，我想对正在听我演讲的人力资源部的人说的第一件事是，你可以做两件事. By the way, I used to think this was going to be a top-down thing. 我以为ceo们会明白我所说的科学道理并意识到, "Wow, the guy's giving us a formula for changing how we lead.但即使是这样，他们也会说:“好吧，我为什么要改变呢?? 我是这家公司的首席执行官，我一直很成功. 为我工作的人都很成功. 所以外围十大菠菜app为什么要接受新事物呢?"
这就是一直存在的阻力, and now I'm saying, "Well, it's happening from the bottom up. People are telling you whether they're applying or not applying, staying or not staying, whether or not they like your culture. And if you want to attract really great people and keep them, 你得做点不一样的事." And I think there are many CEOs that are figuring this out. I had Bill George on my podcast just a couple weeks ago, 他显然是哈佛商学院的一员, been teaching there for 20 years, and he said, "The people I talk to, the people in my circle, CEOs, they're on board with this. They know that they're going to have to make that shift."
So it's going to take time. You have to buy into the idea of it first. And so, 我想我要求人力资源部门做的第一件事是开始衡量员工流动率的来源, by manager, because the likelihood is they're principally responsible for it. It's not the company. 这很大程度上取决于人们感觉自己受到了怎样的对待, cared for, and supported, or the opposite of those things.
So start there. I would do a quarterly survey. I learned this from Google. Karen May told me this. She goes, "We send out a quarterly survey, and we ask people one question, 你会向其他谷歌员工推荐你的经理吗?'" And I just love that. 它是如此的二进制，它给你这样一个即时的反馈，是如此的有用. And you start to look and say, "Well, 经理们怎么了，没人愿意推荐他们?" And so, explore it. Go interview employees. What would make you recommend your manager? What's something that we might be able to coach this manager on? 然后你开始和那些经理一起工作, 理想情况下，会提高说, "Yes, I would definitely recommend my manager," but calling out the behaviors, “以下是外围十大菠菜app在不被推荐的经理身上一直看到的情况. 这些就是外围十大菠菜app所看到的行为.“外围十大菠菜app希望与这些经理合作，实现这一目标, 但外围十大菠菜app想让所有人都明白真北是什么样子, if you will.
然后，你显然必须剔除那些不愿意做出这些改变的人. So, the changes that we're looking for, we know, consistently, data shows this over and over, 人们希望为一个关心他们个人的老板工作, that supports them, that makes them feel safe, that's appreciative, that grows them, develops them, all of those things. So that's the formula. 但问题是，你会推荐他们吗? Well, 你开始和这些没有被推荐的人一起工作，提高他们的表现，或者让别人接替他们的工作.
我想说的另一件事是, 这对一些经理人来说是一个更高的障碍, because I think there's still this fear. You hear the word heart, you immediately associate it with all kinds of softness, and, "This is going to get us into trouble. More we care about people, 你就越想占外围十大菠菜app便宜, and we're not going to hit our goals," all that mythology. But what I would suggest is that you start asking people... Like, in other words, the only people that you hire for any management position, 管理意味着监督其他人, 他们必须表现出他们真的关心别人, that it's not just about themselves, 他们在别人的成功中茁壮成长, that they want to help other people succeed. They're not threatened by their success. They're advocates. They're coaches.
有趣的是，这样做的方法很简单，就是问他们. So if I said, "Hey, have you in your...?" So you're a candidate, and I'm interviewing you, and I say, "In your career so far, 你是否曾经有意帮助过一个人，让他从你雇佣他或开始管理他的职位上成长起来，有意帮助他获得晋升，甚至两次晋升? Have you ever done that?" And of course, they go, "Well, yes. Oh yes, absolutely I do this. Sure I do." And then you go in for the punch, which is, "Okay, great. 告诉我这些人的具体名字. Give me two or three examples, 然后告诉外围十大菠菜app他们的工作是什么，以及你具体做了什么来帮助他们在职业生涯中成长，并获得下一次晋升." And then, you're generally going to get, "Oh, well, I...“你会发现这些人没有做任何事情来帮助别人, because they don't think about other people.
And I call it a caring gene. And Gallup has told me that... Jim Harder told me once, we were working on an article together, and he said, "Because you know, 世界上只有大约30%的人真正认同你所说的." And I said, "What do you mean?" He goes, "No, we know this. 大多数人只关注自己的成长, their own success, their own careers, their own recognition. They don't really care about other people.“因此，30%的美国员工投入工作几乎不足为奇, 因为就像自然分布一样, 30% of the population, 30% of all managers have that caring gene. 所以外围十大菠菜app要找的人不仅要知道如何提高业绩, but also act like a coach, 就像一个真正想要帮助团队做得更好的人，而不是太以自我为中心，以至于人们会觉得他们在和老板竞争，或者老板在拖他们的后腿.
The way this should work is, 所以，如果我是首席执行官，我看到数百万人辞职，我有大量的空缺职位，我吸引的人并不是我需要的人, they don't have the skills, they're not who I want, but I'm struggling to find positions, and I'm looking at this, and I'm saying, “这可能是外围十大菠菜app的文化以及外围十大菠菜app管理人员的方式造成的.所以我相信他们应该说，“外围十大菠菜app需要在某种程度上重塑外围十大菠菜app的文化。..." And this doesn't mean blowing it up. It just means, “外围十大菠菜app如何改进它，告诉人们这些是外围十大菠菜app正在寻找的价值观, like this is the behavior that we want our managers to live to?"
And so, I remember, in the course of my career, that I worked at... My very first job out of college, it was a savings and loan... It was effectively a bank, if you will. 但他们的业务基本上只是吸引存款和出售抵押贷款. It's all they were doing. 后来他们意识到这已经不可行了, 他们赚不到足够的钱来维持生计. 因此，他们开始变得更加以销售为导向. They started to train their employees, their people in the branch networks, so when a customer came in, they just didn't say, "Oh, you want a CD? Okay, here's your CD." They'd say, "Oh, while you're here, 我注意到您在外围十大菠菜app这里没有支票账户, and by the way, when was the last time you refinanced? And where is your credit card?“因此，他们正在与人们进行积极的对话，他们正在学习如何做到这一点.
Well, 当你让别人突然开始卖，而你从来没有这么做过, that's a bit of a hurdle. So you have to say, "Hey, we're all on a journey together here. We're all new to this. 这就是外围十大菠菜app要去的地方，外围十大菠菜app要训练你，外围十大菠菜app要指导你. We're going to teach you how to do this. 外围十大菠菜app会给你时间去学习，但外围十大菠菜app需要你到达那里."
And that's kind of the model for what we need to do here. 你不能告诉经理，“开始关心”，然后期待一切都会发生. 必须有一个系统，比如重新定义... adding values, if you will. So, if you just added caring to your values, CEO就可以去找经理们说, "This is a new value for us. 外围十大菠菜app需要更加关心外围十大菠菜app的员工, and we're going to hold you as a manager accountable for that. We want to see that behavior in you. We not only want to see it in you. 外围十大菠菜app希望你的员工告诉外围十大菠菜app，他们在你身上看到了这一点.“这就是文化变化的方式，所以这不是不能做到的.
And so, just to kind of pin it down, 当它被迫从底层面对-à-vis伟大的辞职, 实现这一目标的方法是ceo和首席人力资源官, chief talent officers, all those people in those positions to say, "We're going to pivot now. 外围十大菠菜app要让自己适应新的现实, 这就是外围十大菠菜app要做的吸引和留住优秀人才的事情."
Brent:
Because these current systems that we have now are so entrenched. What stops the C-suite? What stops the board? What stops activist investors a little ways down the road, 要么陷入衰退，要么只是足够远，也许事情已经重新平衡? 是什么阻止了他们回到原来的样子?
Mark:
I think part of it is that if you've been... So you're a senior leader. 你大概在45到60岁之间，对吧，在那个年代，对吧? 所以你已经有20、25、30年的经验了. 就你的操作方式而言，你太老了. So the premise that, "Hey, we need to change how we manage people,这并不能引起成功人士的共鸣. So then, they start to compare what... 谈论你所谈论的，外围十大菠菜app管理方式的进化. 我想他们会想，“如果行不通怎么办? We need to hit our numbers. We need to hit our goal, 外围十大菠菜app不能只花一个季度的时间去照顾别人, that people stop working, people stop producing, and we have to go to Wall Street and our investors and say, 'We had this horrible experiment that backfired so terribly.'"
A couple years ago, I spoke at one of the most well-known insurance companies, and this was their senior management team. They came in from all over the country. And so, when I got done laying out my whole thesis, the national sales manager got up, and he said, "You know what..." This is exactly what he said. 他说:“你知道吗，你刚刚和外围十大菠菜app分享的内容非常精彩，非常准确?"
And I don't think he meant to set me up, but then he said, "I got to tell you, 如果我是全国销售经理，如果外围十大菠菜app在一个季度的一半，外围十大菠菜app没有达到目标, my natural instinct, and will continue to be even after hearing your presentation, is to go to fear and intimidation. And the reason is that it works. When I threaten people and say, 'If you don't hit your numbers, you may not get a good review, and if you don't get a good review, 这样你就会被解雇，被解雇，或被解雇,' whatever it is, I'm going to that." And he goes, "What do you think of that?" And I said, "Well, obviously, you weren't listening to my presentation, 因为你永远不会问这个问题, because putting people into fear is the most destabilizing. 这实际上与给予人们支持以使他们达到最佳表现水平是相反的." But we think that that's the way to go.
And then, unfortunately, 外围十大菠菜app仍然倾向于让股东成为公司的主要利益相关者. So the CEOs, who I'm asking to drive the change, 股东们也在说什么, without saying it directly, "We don't really care about what you do for your employees. 外围十大菠菜app关心的是你能否达到目标." And so there's this pressure of, "If I'm too nice, if I'm too caring, if I'm too supporting, this is going to backfire, and I'm going to be out of a job." So there's all of that tension.
然而，有很多公司已经证明了这是正确的模式... I don't know what it's going to take, if it's going to take more resignations, more difficulty finding people. So some people are already on this. Bill George confirmed that. 有些ceo已经在朝着这个方向努力改变他们的文化. And then there's going to be these resistors, which is like, "This is bullshit, 外围十大菠菜app不需要听从内心的引导. We don't need to care about people. People get paid a job. They're going to get their pay. 如果他们干得好，外围十大菠菜app就给他们加薪. 如果他们做得好，外围十大菠菜app会给他们奖金，如果他们做得不好，外围十大菠菜app就解雇他们. That's our deal." And there's going to be CEOs that are going to think like that, but those aren't the people that I'm trying to influence, 因为在他们恢复理智之前，他们将不得不忍受更大的痛苦.
Brent:
Something else I wanted to ask you about, 我认为你最好把这个区别开来. 告诉外围十大菠菜app用心领导和做一个用心领导的领导者有什么区别.
Mark:
I want to just... 现在我要让自己难堪了，但我想拥抱你问这个问题. It's such a great question, because I hate the expression... 让我倒回去把白板擦干净. 我不同意“用心领导”这个说法, 尽管没有人比我谈论这个话题的时间更长, right, 从某种意义上说，发自内心的领导是我过去十几年来一直在赞助和倡导的, and publicly. And the idea is that, I think in order to persuade CEOs, the same people we've been talking about, or anybody in senior leadership, or even a lot of individual managers, that this makes sense, is to get them out of the belief that the heart is a soft, weak, sentimental, Valentine heart, all the fantasies that we have, like the heart is like kryptonite.
So I want to change that mindset, 因为我真正谈论的是生物心脏的科学, not the Valentine heart, not the romantic heart, 但有科学表明，心脏实际上在影响外围十大菠菜app的选择和行为方面发挥着重要作用, 感觉和情绪驱动着外围十大菠菜app的行为. And so, if that's the case, 然后外围十大菠菜app基本上需要重塑外围十大菠菜app接近领导力的方式, knowing that this is the biological truth.
但从表面上看，“以心为导向的领导者”这个概念意味着一切都与心有关. And we have to be careful that... What I'm saying is, it's a balance between the heart and the mind. It's not one or the other. 外围十大菠菜app一直只依靠大脑来管理，我认为这就是让外围十大菠菜app陷入麻烦的原因. We don't think about the impacts on people. 外围十大菠菜app裁员是因为外围十大菠菜app认为这将有助于外围十大菠菜app实现季度业绩, 外围十大菠菜app不明白，外围十大菠菜app刚刚用恐惧污染了外围十大菠菜app的劳动力. 他们在想，“好吧，我将是下一个被解雇的人，所以我为什么要在这里忠诚。?“外围十大菠菜app不是那样想的，那些想法也不是来自头脑. They come from the heart.
但与此同时，管理一家企业仍然需要外围十大菠菜app动脑筋. 外围十大菠菜app仍然需要使用数据，外围十大菠菜app仍然需要做出艰难的决定. 所以，这两者之间的平衡是我真正努力追求的. And the reason that my book... 你可以说，“你的书叫《正规博十大app排名》，所以你不虚伪吗?我说:“不，因为外围十大菠菜app今天的领导方式没有用心。.“所以我说这是缺失的部分, 是关怀，同情，甚至是同情, things that have historically sounded ridiculous and soft, that I'm saying actually have an enormous impact on people. But it can't be all of that. 所以你不能总是感谢别人，欣赏别人，培养他们. You still have to hold them accountable for performance.
So I'll make this one punctuation, 那就是如果你去找那些曾经为我工作多年的人, 25 years, at every level that I managed and said, "Well, 你会用什么词来形容马克·克劳利, your former boss?你可能会想，尤其是现在，他们会说，“哦，他是心脏医生。. He's all heart. He's all about the heart." That's the word. And yet, if you went to them, what they would really tell you is, “他是我共事过的最苛刻的经理."
所以你会说，“嗯，你怎么能把这和做一个用心的人协调起来呢?" And the way that I reconcile it is that, A, I'm competitive. B, I'm being rewarded for performance. Leadership is a job about driving results, so I'm all with that. But if I'm going to support people, making them feel safe, intentionally making people feel safe, committing to their development, 做出个人调整，支持他们生活中任何可能具有挑战性的事情, 就像给他们额外的15分钟让他们迟到，这样他们就可以带孩子去学校了. If I can make that accommodation, I'm going to make that accommodation, because it feels good to people, and they feel grateful for it. 我要做所有这些事情，感谢别人，并有一个团队来支持他们. So I'm all about collaboration. 我喜欢相互支持，互相支持，创造这种美妙的环境.
My belief was, if I'm going to do this when nobody else is doing this, then I'm elevating their potential. 所以我过去常常说，“看，外围十大菠菜app在这里不会平庸. This is our lives. 所以如果外围十大菠菜app要这样做，我会在这些方面支持你, I think we should be aiming higher." So we used to set, I used to set, 外围十大菠菜app的目标远远高于每个人正在做的或要求的, 比公司要求的要高, but also, what everybody else was planning to do. Nobody set their sights above it. It's like, "You want X, we'll get X." And I'm saying, "No, let's do X plus 20%."
And initially, my manager's like, "20%? That's ridiculous. How could you ask us to do that?我说:“那就制定一个计划，看看你能不能想出办法来。.他们开始看，然后说:“是的，外围十大菠菜app可以做到。.“所以外围十大菠菜app曾经让所有人都大吃一惊，因为外围十大菠菜app从一开始就把目标定在了更伟大的事情上, 如果我没有建立支持的基础，外围十大菠菜app就不会这样做了, 我做了各种各样的事情，以确保这些人觉得他们在正确的时间为正确的人、正确的工作和正确的公司工作.
Brent:
你认为外围十大菠菜app现在处于混合模式还是远程模式的哪个阶段? What's working? What's not working? What's the thinking right now?
Mark:
外围十大菠菜app刚开始回办公室的时候, 我为《外围十大菠菜app》写了一篇文章，但被很多人误解了. 我说的是外围十大菠菜app不应该考虑全职远程工作. It's not a good idea. And people wrote me... The only time I've ever gotten hate mail, people were sending me messages saying, "You're a corporate shill, and you're just advocating for CEOs who want us to go back." And I said... Right? And I just want to go back and go, "Go back and read it, and you'll see I'm an advocate for hybrid," so this is, what, 18 months ago, whatever? So I was an advocate for hybrid at the time. 但我想说的是，作为人类，一直保持距离对外围十大菠菜app是不好的. And the counter-argument that I got from people was like, "I have friends, and I have family, and I'm with my kids, and I'm with my spouse, 所以我因为没有互动而受到伤害."
但科学确实证明了这一点, that's not the case, that particularly, 比如如果你每周在家工作五天, you're at your desk, you're on a computer, you're not interacting with other people, and you're missing out on something really, really important. Human connection, belonging is achieved... I know this is going to sound completely crazy, but it's true. 外围十大菠菜app的心需要与他人联系. We need to be with other people. And so, 这也和我一直在想的事情非常一致, which is that our hearts... 外围十大菠菜app的大脑告诉外围十大菠菜app，“不，不，我可以在家工作. 我可以在家里高效地工作，而且我将获得所有我需要的联系.我现在看到的是，人们的内心在告诉他们:“你知道吗?" Excuse me. "I'm missing being in the office. I'm missing being with people." So it's like a form of loneliness, which is a sign from our bodies saying, "You got to go out there and be with people, 因为一直独自一人对你不好."
There's also science that shows that it's the microconnections. 所以我在大厅碰到你，我就说，“嘿，你好吗? Did you see the game last week?" because I know you like football. 外围十大菠菜app只聊了五秒钟，然后我就继续了. You move on. I go an hour later, and I go into the cafeteria, and the person that works the cafeteria, 外围十大菠菜app聊了聊特色菜是什么, but we're having an interaction, and we know that actually, 这些加起来对外围十大菠菜app来说真的很有意义.
所以，我认为现在的情况是，仍然有人说... 我对远程工作和那些举家搬迁的人很感兴趣. 从事科技行业的人，我认为他们的工作更轻松，或者生活更轻松. 在他们的生活中，很少有互动在他们编码和编程之类的事情上. But for most people, the best solution, I believe, is hybrid. I think that being able to work from home... I work from home, I love it. I absolutely love it. 但当我有机会去演讲或咨询时, 我很高兴和别人在一起，我意识到我是一个内向的人，也是一个外向的人. I think whether that's true of all people, 所有人的真理是外围十大菠菜app真的需要和别人在一起. 如果你每周远程工作五天，你就无法做到这一点.
Brent:
外围十大菠菜app来谈谈新版本的 Lead From the Heart. Tell us a little bit about it. 告诉外围十大菠菜app人们对这本书有什么期待，以及你为什么决定出第二版.
Mark:
这本书最初的前提是，外围十大菠菜app在工作场所管理人类的方法中误解了人类，外围十大菠菜app的领导理论可以追溯到100多年前的工业革命时期，当时人们, we believed at the time, at least, that they really didn't want to work, that the work was hard, 而让他们工作的方法就是告诉他们，他们会得到报酬如果他们的产出超过外围十大菠菜app的预期，他们可能会得到更多的报酬, and that through the course of the day, 外围十大菠菜app要确保你的身体一直处于燃烧状态. So, 外围十大菠菜app也想付你尽可能少的钱，从你身上榨出尽可能多的钱, 只是基于这样做会让业主获得更多利润的前提.
So, work was a shitty experience for people, and they accepted it, 只是因为他们需要有地方住，需要有饭吃, and this was the way to do it. And so, people had to basically take whatever was offered to them. And so, 外围十大菠菜app只是把整个哲学延续了100多年，从来没有真正研究过它, "Have things changed? Has anything changed? Is this still the right thing?" And the truth is that people want to work. People, not only do they want to work, like it's not just about pay anymore, people want to be filled by it. They want to grow in it. 他们想做一些有意义和有意义的事情, and they want to work with people that they can work well with, 这就是他们眼中的生活. 因此，在过去的几十年里，人们对工作的期望发生了根本性的变化，什么能让他们在工作中感到快乐、满足和投入, and we were stuck on this old philosophy.
So, there's that, but then, when I wrote the book originally, 我还说了一些完全不同的东西, which is that we're not the rational people we think we are. 笛卡尔说，“我思故我在”，外围十大菠菜app一直相信他，一个多世纪以来. And we now know that that's simply not the case, that there's a... Antonio Damasio, when he was at the Salk Institute, wrote a book called Descartes' Error, 他在哪里证明了智力实际上是通过身体分布的, not just in the brain, and that we are actually driven mostly by feelings and emotions. And there's many, 来自不同学术水平的许多其他研究人员也得出了类似的假设, but basically confirming that we're not really that rational, that feelings and emotions drive up to 95% of our behavior, 然后外围十大菠菜app用外围十大菠菜app的大脑来合理化这种感觉.
And also tied to Damasio's work and others', I've discovered that the heart actually plays a role in all this, that the heart and the mind are connected, 心脏向大脑传递的信息比大脑传递的信息多, 感觉和思想的持续循环基本上一直驱动着外围十大菠菜app所有的行为. So when I say, "lead from the heart,“我是说，外围十大菠菜app正在影响人们的内心，因为这是驱使他们行为的原因. 这就是这本书最初的前提. And the title of the book, Lead from the Heart, was so off-putting to people in business, because they immediately thought, "He's got to be soft. The guy doesn't get business. He's a religious nut. He's a spiritualist. There's something wrong with this. We don't bring heart into leadership."
And so, what I had to do... And the interesting thing was education. 现在有10所大学在教授这本书，所以教育部门很快就明白了这一点. 商界反对它，仅仅是因为它的名称. So, what I decided to do was to start writing articles. I write for Fast Company, 然后我开了一个播客，这样人们就可以听到我谈论这些，听到这些想法，或者读到这些想法，随着时间的推移，开始意识到, "Hey, 也许我对此的抗拒是不恰当的. 也许我需要再深入研究一下."
但在这个过程中，发生了什么是我正在与之交谈的人... 我感兴趣的是向那些谈论支持这一论点的人学习. 这就是我播客上所有人的共同点. So I've learned from all of them. 所以，另一个因素是我的出版商过来说，“你知道吗...?" So this was a year ago this past August, so 14, 15 months ago, “你知道吗?你的书去年的销量比前八年还多?" And I said, "No.他们说:“外围十大菠菜app认为全世界现在已经准备好接受你的信息了，完全准备好了。.他们说:“如果你能在100天内写完，外围十大菠菜app就出版第二版。.“所以我在1975年写了这本书，因为从第一版开始，我就一直沉浸在这本书中. And so, that's the answer.
Brent:
那么你对未来几年有什么看法? What do you think is going to...? 你认为即使经济衰退，这种辞职潮还会持续下去吗? What are you thinking about how we're going moving forward?
Mark:
外围十大菠菜app谁也不知道经济会发生什么变化. 有很多奇怪的变数，战争正在进行，政治两极分化，“中国会入侵台湾吗?“外围十大菠菜app有各种各样的问题，但外围十大菠菜app也看到抵押贷款利率翻了一番. Interest rates just keep going up. Inflation is eating... Just paid $120 yesterday to fill up my car. We've got all these kinds of challenges. So, it almost seems obvious that next year, the next couple of years, from an economy standpoint, 会比以前更困难吗. 钱更贵了，外围十大菠菜app面临着各种全球性的挑战. There's going to be a slowdown.
But if I'm a CEO and I'm running a company in a difficult time, 我希望有真正优秀的人为我工作，帮助外围十大菠菜app渡过难关, 我当然不希望人们离开. So, the other companies are looking and saying, "I still need to get good talent here, because we're going into a headwind, and I need some people to help us get there.“所以在公司里，如果你不真正关心你的员工，这种紧张关系仍然会存在, 总会有其他公司进来说, "Hey, we may have laid off people, but we still need people with your talent, and we want you to come here, and we're going to give you X in terms of compensation, 但外围十大菠菜app也会给你这些其他的东西," and those other things are the things that they're looking for.
So, if I'm looking at a CEO and I'm saying, "Well, it's all hands on deck, and we're just going to leverage our people, 这就是外围十大菠菜app如何度过接下来的几年," I'm saying, “你这样想，你会被宇宙打屁股的.所以，换句话说，这是你想要改变的时刻. 这是你想说的时刻, “外围十大菠菜app想创造一个没有人想离开，每个人都想来的环境, because that's going to be the differential. 如果外围十大菠菜app能组建一支热爱这里的团队, 谁致力于外围十大菠菜app正在做的工作, 这些人会帮外围十大菠菜app渡过难关, create the stability, create the interest, create the support."
这些公司将会在这个经济环境中茁壮成长. 问题是，它是如此不可预测，如此不确定，当你在一个模棱两可的时期工作，外围十大菠菜app现在生活, 你最不需要的就是你的员工队伍出现大量的混乱. You don't want 10, 15, 20% of your people quitting, because it's just so much of a drag on how the businesses operate.
I was just reading... Chipotle, 他们的流动率很高，以至于他们可以观察到他们的商店的生产率已经显著下降, 这是因为人们在那里的时间还不够长，不知道如何快速制作食物. 就像，“这个里面有什么原料?" And so, people are frustrated, because they want to get in and get out, and it's because of massive turnover. So if it's happening in Chipotle, it's happening everywhere. 你不能没有有才能的人, 你不需要因为错误的企业文化而导致员工辞职. So, I think the great resignation is going to quit along those lines, and CEOs and senior managers are going to be really smart to say, “这是外围十大菠菜app真正致力于创造一个人们想要归属感的环境的时刻."